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Subject: Polybutylene (Qest) pipe
Date: Tue,
23 Sep 1997
From: scoundrl@mindspring.com (Thomas
Gauldin)
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises,
Inc.
Newsgroups: alt.home.repair
Bruce- the following is a file I created when we discovered the problems with Quest. Our entire home was replumbed to copper by the Plumbing Recovery Center. Read about our experiences before you try a DIY job,
Tom (see below)
"Bruce O. Horne" <bhorne@wave-net.net> wrote:
>I have qest pipe in my home with the plastic connectors. I was told that >the pipe itself is ok, as long as I replace all the connectors with copper >and new copper crimp rings. I inspected the pipe which appears ok. I have >had to replace two plastic tee's so far, but want to either replace the >rest or if necessary replumb the whole home. I bought the crimp tool and >have a fair knowledge of plumbing. I'm retired Special Forces, Viet Nam >vet, and ride a Harley. Any help would be appreciated. >bhorne@wave-net.net
Polybutylene is a brand name of a very popular type of pipe used in residential
and commercial installations. It hit the peak of its popularity in the latter
part of the '70's and the '80's. It is still sold today!. Indoors, Polybutylene
pipe is gray colored and flexible. It
is blue colored when used in a yard. It is used for both hot and cold plumbing.
Pieces of Polybutylene pipe are joined by using fittings of plastic or copper
that are inserted into the pipe and then compressed with
a copper band. The fittings may be of copper or a gray/blue colored plastic.
The outer compression band is of copper and is crimped on with a
tool that looks similar to a bolt cutter.
The problem with polybutylene plumbing is that the chlorine and chemicals
in most drinking water cause gradual changes in the fittings and the pipe
itself. Even though the plumbing might not be disturbed, the gradual hardening
of the fittings or pipe can cause a leak years after it was installed.
My own problem with Polybutylene began about a year after we moved into
our home.
One day, before I began finishing out the basement, I noticed a small
wet
spot on the basement floor. I traced it to a leaking "Tee" fitting
in
the ceiling. The plumber who did our house came out and we replaced the
plastic "Tee" fitting with one of copper. The plumber told me
that the
plumbing supply house no longer sold the plastic fittings and that they
were no longer acceptable to 'code' requirements. He indicated that the
copper fittings were OK and that the pipe itself was OK.
My next leak started for no apparent reason near a hot water heater.
There was a Polybutylene plastic elbow about 2' from the heater and it had
developed a "weeping" at the elbow. By then, I had my own Polybutylene
copper band compression tool, and merely replaced the fitting myself. There
was no damage to the carpet, since the "weep" was minor and I
had
noticed it in time.
During the second year we were in the house, I began to finish out the
basement. I used Polybutylene pipe, but with copper fittings, for this
work. Whenever I encountered a plastic fitting, I removed it and replaced
it with copper. During this time, I had several more leaks. These were
particularly associated with the plumbing that ran to outdoor sill hydrants.
I suspected that the leaks were attributable to the rapid shut-off of solenoid
valves I used for lawn watering back then. I resolved this problem by installing
new Polybutylene lines with copper fittings to all outdoor hydrants. Several
months ago, I noticed a little "blurb" on TV or in a magazine
that
gave an 800 # for a "Plumbing Recovery Center." It specifically
mentioned
Polybutylene-type plumbing leaks. I called the # and was sent a form to
be filled out that identified my type of plumbing and fittings and whether
I'd encountered any leaks. I filled the form out and sent it in. The number
is (800) 356-3496
Several months later, I received another letter from the same folks in
Texas, that included another form that was more particular about the leaks
and included a color photograph of Polybutylene pipe and fittings for a
positive identification. At that point, you were required to certify, under
penalty of perjury, that you had experienced leaks and had to document when
they occurred.
Upon sending the form in, I got a telephone call within a week from an
insurance claims adjustor located here in Raleigh. He wanted to come to
the house, see the plumbing and to see where I had experienced the leaks.
Their company is under contract to the folks in Texas to inspect and settle
Polybutylene plumbing claims.
His visit was yesterday, and the results were very disturbing. Here's
what
he told me. Polybutylene pipe itself is also subject to deterioration and
leaks. The plastic fittings harden, and leaks develop first at the fittings,
but the pipe itself also hardens and becomes brittle. The use
of copper fittings delays the onset of leaks, since the pipe ages much more
slowly than the plastic fittings do. However, it is a time bomb.
He told me that Shell Oil and the product liability carriers for the
companies that made Polybutylene pipe and fittings had made a multi-billion
dollar provision to replace the Polybutylene portion of all
plumbing systems in homes plumbed with Polybutylene pipe, as leaks developed.
In essence, the Polybutylene pipe and fittings are totally removed from
the house (including leaking water lines in a yard) and replaced by CPVC
or copper plumbing- at the expense of the insurance companies.
His inspection verified that my home was indeed plumbed with polybutylene
pipe and that there were numerous plastic fittings of the type that developed
leaks first. He said that the only solution to the problem would be to totally
remove all Polybutylene plumbing from the house, including inside the walls
and to replace it. He left a form with me that
listed the "scope" of the replacement. It included repair of drywall
damage, repainting of affected walls, a wallpaper allowance if wallpaper
damaged, a restoration or replacement of all damaged ceramic tile and cleanup.
In my own home, we guessed that this could run in the area of
$15,000 because of the number of fixures and the complexity of my system.
The procedure is that two or three local licensed plumbing contractors
would be contacted by the insurance claims people and would visit my home
to issue bids for the work. There are contractors now all across the country
now that are doing nothing else but replumbing Polybutylene-plumbed homes.
We would then meet again with the adjustor
and would settle on a contractor to do the work.
Should you have Polybutylene-type of plumbing in your own home, the place
to start is a call the The Plumbing Claims Group at 800-356-3496 in Plano
TX. Nothing can or will be done unless you have already experienced one
of more leaks in your plumbing system.
I am sharing this with you to alert you to the problem. Even though you
might not have experienced a leak as of yet, the problem is still there.
As more homes plumbed with this material age and develop leaks, I fear that
homeowners insurance companies may begin to issue exclusions to homeowner's
policies for water damage to homes plumbed with polybutylene.
In addition, the sale of a home plumbed with this material will probably
become a disclosure item on a real estate listing or sale. In any event,
a home inspector for a buyer would notice the polybutylene plumbing and
would certainly call it to the attention of the buyer.
On April 2, we had the first visit by a contractor. The estimator was
the drywall/decorator for REK Construction Co. of Wilmington (910) 343-1082.
I gave the estimator the following worksheet, since I wanted any estimators to have the same basis for a bid:
(the following is a copy of the form, but is in "odd" format
because of
the difference in the printer used and UNIX's editor formats)
Plumbing pressure connections inside home
Outdoors: (8) sill hydrants-- by guest BR, Front Porch, North BR window,
Rear Garage Door, under Dining Room Window and (2) in upper garage, plus
connection to deck ****
Attic: just stubbed up from basement *** Main Floor:
Kitchen--- dishwasher, sink, icemaker *, wetbar Guest Bath---tub/shower,
vanity, stool ** Hall Bath---vanity, stool **
Kids Bath ---dual vanity, tub/shower, stool ** Laundry Room--- Clothes Washer
*, Laundry Tub * Master Bath---jaccuzzi, dual vanity, dual showers, stool
** Lower Level
Workshop --- mudsink, Deck connection (in ceiling) Kitchen---sink, icemaker
*
Bath---tub/shower, vanity, stool Bedroom---hot water heater
Lower Garage Storage---main entrance, pressure regulator, filters, risers
to N. attic
Lower Garage---hot water heater Hall Bath---vanity, stool, mudsink Office---
risers to S. attic
**** The sill hydrants are fed by a separate 3/4" line that bypasses the filter system and is at line pressure. The balance of the home has pressure reduced to 75 psi.
*** Stubbed-up pipe is strapped inside finished walls.
** Bath has thick-set ceramic tile or marble floor.
* Connections are visible or are in wall fixtures.
Summary:
icemakers---(2)
dishwashers---(1)
vanity sinks---(8)
wetbar---(1)
mud sinks/laundry tubs---(2) + (1) kitchen sinks---(2)
tub/showers---(3)
showers only---(2)
jaccuzzi---(1)
stools---(6)
sill hydrants---(7)+ (1) to deck
water heaters---(2)
filter manifold---(1)
stubbed off riser pairs to attic---(2)***
The person told me that whenever plumbing came through a wall, as a stool
fitting, that the owner had a choice of permitting the plumber to come up
through the floor with a new supply line (capping off the wall fitting)
or removing paper/drywall and installing a new wall fitting. Since all bathroom
floors had THICKSET tile, the wall was our only option.
To compensate us for damaged paper, the requirements for new paper would
be estimated and we would be issued a check for new paper and installation.
Damaged basement ceiling tile would be replaced as well.
His bid was to be submitted to THOMPSON COMPANY (not to the homeowner)
and would be there in approximately two weeks. He indicated that his company ONLY did Quest-related repairs and replumbing.
April 19- Today, the second estimator arrived. He was with Phonenix Construction of Raleigh (919) P873-9697. He had ten two-man plumbing crews and ten 2-man drywall crews that he also used for Quest- related
work only. I gave him the same worksheet and we toured the house today.
He confirmed what the other estimator had told me regarding paper, drywall,
tile etc. One thing I didn't like was that he told me that bumpers were
an owner-option with copper pipe. (Bumpers being the nickname for pneumatic
shock absorbers (hammer eliminators)). It was a
small item, but worth remembering.
July 5- Having heard nothing from the Crawford folks I was surprised
to
get a call that a third contractor was coming to see the house and give
an estimate. The explanation was that the first contractor hadn't submitted
a bid due to the size of our house and the extent of the work. A contractor
from Garner NC arrived and we walked though the house, with
me giving him a copy of the scope of work. He said that he'd get back
to the Crawford people. One thing he said that made me nervous was mentioning that his "drywall man" was backed up almost a month in work.
August 16- Chris from Phoenix Construction called to say that they'd
been awarded our work and that he'd be here on Monday morning with two plumbing
crews at 8:00a. Sure enough, at 8:00a, five vehicles showed up
in the driveway. Chris walked the guys through the house and they immediately
got to work. Their goal was to have the plumbing part of the work done by
Friday night.
They began by removing ceiling tile in the affected areas and stacking
it neatly against walls. Visqueen was everywhere. Where drywall was removed, the piece and adjoining wall were marked with a code number for reinstallation. The guys were very dependable in replacing 3/4" lines and 1/2" lines with similar sizes.
The "foreman" is a licensed plumber from Maryland, as are two
of the crew.
The others are local apparently. The guys are good, hardworking folks
who have been making every attempt to minimize disruption and mess. They are using lots of "K" (flexible) copper in the walls and corners,
and using rigid in the ceiling. In the evening, they began to clean up
about 1/2 hour before quitting time. I walked around with the foreman
and showed him areas where immediate cleanup wasn't necessary. I also
told them that if they wanted to start earlier, say at 7:00a, that
it was OK with us.
Tuesday- they were here at 7:00a sharp and immediately began work. Any
one of the four guys appear capable of doing the entire job. They are all
darn good plumbers, in my opinion. They know they're tearing up a man's
house and are as conscientious as any reasonable person could ask. They
asked if they could begin again at 7:00a Wednesday,
and we agreed.
-----Passage of 5 days-----
Its now Sunday afternoon and the plumbers are finished. They have cut holes in the bathroom walls for each stool and shower, but the vanities were "saved" by drilling downward toward the back of the vanity to the basement. The ceiling tile has been stacked against the walls and I used the opportunity to change the tubes in the florescent lamps in the basement. They plumbers told me on Friday evening that I could expect the plumbing inspector Monday AM, followed by their drywaller to begin repairs and to reinstall the ceiling tiles.
-----Passage of another week-----
On Monday morning, a fellow arrived at 8:00a to begin the drywall repair. Since each removed piece had been numbered and saved, he only had to fit the pieces back in thier holes. To do this, he first screwed 1X2 boards across the holes at the edges and then screwed the removed pieces to the boards. The joints were then trimmed a bit and taped for drywalling. By nightfall, all holes had been filled in this way. Where there was wallpaper, the paper was cut away from the sides of the hole so that the drywall mud would rest on the drywall and not the vinyl paper. The carpets were covered with plastic and subsequently cleaned each night.
The second day, he began by mudding over the area. While the mud set, he and his helper replaced basement ceiling tile. By nightfall, all basement ceiling tile was in place and the second coat of mud had been put on the holes.
The third day brought a light sanding to the repaired walls and a third wide coating of mud. Escutcheons were placed to cover the holes in the backs of cabinets and by then the drywall could be finally sanded. Paint was supplied by the drywaller and each room's color had been computer matched at a paint store. Frankly, the repaired walls looked as good or better than the others.
Thursday brought another general cleanup to all floors and a cleanup of the materials. By evening, I was very willing to "sign off" on the acceptance form.
On Friday, there was a minor leak in the laundry room, but a call to the contractor brought forth a plumber in less than an hour. He replaced a ferrule on a riser and mopped the floor. The electrician also arrived and bonded the copper plumbing to the neutral bar on the meter socket. By evening, our home lacked only the replacement wallpaper. The drywaller had measured the bathroom walls and we expect the check in the coming week for both labor and material.
SUMMARY
It isn't easy to have your home visited by six, four and two people, who tear into recently painted or papered walls, melt hot solder and generally create a necessary mess in doing so. However, the methods, materials and employee training used by Phonenix Construction Company (the contractor specializing in polybutylene replacement in our area) minimized the disruption and discomfort during this period. Like surgery, it isn't easy, but it was handled in the most professional way I could have reasonably expected. Today, we have new copper plumbing that should last for the life of our house.
Tom Gauldin
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